Havasu Closure Map - Final

Issues with BLMs Lake Havasu TMP

Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby dj » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:23 pm

Am glad you are having a good time riding. There is obviously nothing wich tells you to search out and comment about the BLMs intended closures while you are there. I assumed that because you were posting on the Havasu closure map thread - that was what you were doing. Just remember, no matter how logical it may seem to you - you don't get to change either the BLMs methods or rules for how they are handling their TMP public comment process.

IF you intend to be part of the problem solving and commenting process you must comment on an INTENDED closure by its trail name/number. Riding around documenting all the NON-trails and washes will do nothing except provide fuel for those persons who flail their arms around about all the miscreants who are out deliberately despoiling the land by "getting off the designated trails." [Them being not-marked, or old or mis-placed is irrelavent to the current discussion.]

[Additionally, your descriptions of your general rides and "logging" of your rides and the area should probably be moved to the "trails" discussion thread and not the "political issue" thread if they aren't going to lead to a public comment on the TMP]
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby HoserRZR » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:22 pm

I am out riding on the trails in the BLM boundary I was told that if there is trails NOT on the BLM maps another words if their are trails and they have not documented them then those trails will automatically be closed when this is over so I am out "riding" and logging where I ride then over lay the data on the closure map to see where I have been, I am not going out hunting for the trails they want to close.

I still see no reason to close any trails I have yet to see ANY signs of any type of trail maintenance or any signs that BLM has been on any of these trails except for the faded signs they installed many years ago.

There is NO trail markers have done about 140 miles of trails this trip in the Havasu boundary have not seen ONE trail marker the only signs I have seen is the closed during lambing season Jan 1 to Jun 30th other than that you would never know you were on BLM land, the other markers I had seen in the past were in a area 20+ miles south of where I am now.

The area is clean, see the usual illegal dumping piles but other than that trail-side you dont see much trash.
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby dj » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:38 pm

I have loaded both your .gpx track and the closure file that the BLM provided and have the following observations:
1- In your loop, it appears that you rode on very few trails that were destined to be closed (red), a large segment where they don't even show a trail (there were other close by options), some trails which the BLM claims they don't have authority over (yellow) and mostly on trails which are open and not under discussion (white).

2- You rode on closed trail HN113- which looks like it's into a wash which then leads into a long segment where the BLM doesn't even list a trail. HN101 is an alternative which appears only yards away. The only difference is that the trail you rode seems to go through a darker area on the satellite map but can't tell what is there that would want to be seen or have access to (see item below).

3- You looped around the bottom on official trails then went off trail again (was there no obvious trail?) before rejoining the official trail. You rode south then cut across to the return trail which was "off trail" - the alternative being to continue a mile south to the "official trail" then back up (again, was there no indication? It appears that the BLM hasn't marked all possible tracks on the ground).

4- You went north again, all on official trails, to HWY 95 where the BLM hasn't given an alternative to get back to HN079 (or some such.)

5- All in all, it looks like you took a pretty innocuous ride through one of the least interesting portions of the area (from the looks of the satellite) which shouldn't have caused anyone any great consternation (except for perhaps the dark area where it seems that the BLM hasn't even admitted that there is a trail). Additionally, it highlights the fact that even in this little segment the BLMs "official" map is woefully inadequate as a trail system (ie dead-end without trail connections, etc.)

6- The REAL ISSUE IS - what was there to see that you couldn't have seen by following easily accessable "Open" trails? One has no real complaint about closing a trail (no matter how idiodic it seems) where there is adequate alternatives to see the same things. And to harp on those types of trails is a waste of energy.

7- You want suggestions of what to do so as not to waste time. You've already been in contact with persons who have actually ridden the trails (ie lied to by the ranger) - that's your first chore, contact him/her and see where they are!

8- Secondly, the most help people like me need (who can't get there) is exact information about WHAT SPECIFICALLY THERE IS TO SEE there - so we can tell where trails SHOULD go and see if there are any alternatives! I've written letters, about trail discontinuities, and what I see on satellite; BUT, we need specifics about where MOST people want to ride, and what there is to see down there, and what will be inacessable (especially to seniors who can't hike) if the BLM has their way.

9- Focus on the trails which WILL be closed (ie in red, orange, blue) - especially to those to destinations and which are heavily used by locals and visitors. One clue is to look at the ORANGE trails which are those that the BLM wants to close off for everyone else BUT thinks THEY need to still get in to and don't want to have to walk like all the rest of us! Again, focus on places you wan't to go which closures will prevent.

10- It's important that you actually make contact with the officials in the BLM (McCoy) while you are down there. What I think everyone needs to know, and you could really help by finding out, is: what official mandate they are working on which tells them to deliberately close off trails? I.e. have him show you the memo, or guiding principles, that they are working from in completing the TMP which the DOI or BLM main office has circulated to the field offices. Don't accept that they are just following the "legislation" - who is giving them actual "marching orders" and what are those specific orders? (i.e. why do they feel the need to close off every wash they see - ask for specific evidence for their claims).

11- Specific recommendations of areas: a) lots of "red" in the area immediately north of Havasu City amongst the "dark areas (mountains?), what is there?;
b) Access to the public is going to be COMPLETELY CLOSED OFF to the south of the city! There will be NO trails left open, at all! Yet that looks like the most interesting segment of the whole area on the satellite;
c) A lot of closed trail to the east of the city, "above" what they are calling the riding area. Why are they all closed off? That seems to be the only mountainous segment in the area. Why are they closing that off?
d) Closing HN478 and HN466 prevents the completion of a loop which circumnavigates Mojave Springs Mesa. Why are they doing that?
e) And the trail I'm most interested in is: HN465. That's an "orange" trail which the BLM doesn't want to have to walk in to; but they want to keep seniors out. WHAT'S IN THERE? I am sensitive to the type of trails that the BLM targets and from the satellite this is awfully supicious of saving a whole area for only the "sierra club" to hike in to and blocking out seniors entirely!

AND REMEMBER - keep tracking your rides on GPS! Send them in, I've started a specific "tracking trail" map for you available at: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/567495/specialty/HavasuClosureTracking.kmz
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby HoserRZR » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:51 pm

Hi again, I went for a quick ride despite not feeling quite well must be something I ate, anyways it was a slow ride since every bump upset my stomach...

Just a 14 mile ride to get a feel for the area, you can ride right up to the gas stations if needed there is trails that lead right to them.

I came back and downloaded the data off the GPS and loaded it into Google Earth along with your file DJ I noticed I had run over a few trails on there closure list now having seen the trails I have to ask what the specific reason to close that particular part of the trail, I didnt know at the time I was on one of the purposed trails to be closed, I need to figure a way to load them on my GPS and to be able to tell the difference between my bread crumbs and from the closure trails then go back and see exactly whats their so it might lend a clue to why they picked it to close, going by memory from what I saw its just another trail in the desert, there was nothing special I remember seeing again I will go back and look for plants or a difference in the soil or rocks.

One trail was HN104 the other was HN113 I am dead set against closing both these trails unless someone can give me a good reason, both sections of that trail connect other trails together.
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby HoserRZR » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:12 pm

HI
Any updates on the GPS data and or this closure?

The update info I have been receiving has crawled to a stop the last update on the save havasu facebook was on 10/4/10.

The last I heard they extended the comment period 4 months to give US time to map all the trails then submit the data to the BLM office, not sure why we are being asked to do work they should already have had done its beyond me how you can first manage lands and or start closing off trails systems when you dont even have a inventory of what your suppose to be managing.

Anyhow has people been submitting GPS data to te BLM, if so WHO?

What trails other than whats already shown on your (DJ) BLM map needs to be mapped, I am here about 3 miles South of I 40 and right off 95 ready to start mapping trails, what I dont want to do is waste a bunch of my time mapping trails that are already mapped then miss trails that have NOT been mapped.


Suggestions on were to start? While waiting for an answer and or more details I will be riding (long awaited) I wish all viewing this was here also...

I added another reply here asking the same thing http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... st12125151 not sure if it will do any good or not.


If you look at the attached picture the area am starting my mapping is roughly inside the green box I drew on the picture.

Thanks in advance,
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby HoserRZR » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:33 am

I just opened the file in Google Earth is the black line the Havasu BLM boundary?

Thanks

ED note: Yes, it is in the folder "Areas" and can be turned on and off as you desire - black outline, transparent center of polygon.
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Re: Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby dj » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:39 pm

This date I have recieved the TMP boundary coordinates from the BLM and have updated the "closure trail map" - the link is still the same, it is available over on the blog at: http://offroadinghome.blogspot.com/2010/09/havasu-trail-closures.html. The perma-link to the file on the web is near the top of the page and should automatically open in Google Earth!
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Havasu Closure Map - Final

Postby dj » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:23 pm

After several "back-and-forths" with the IT department of the Lake Havasu Field Office of the BLM about the maps available for the Travel Management Plan (TMP) - we have now received the map coordinates for all the connecting trails and have finished updating the master map.

It is now available at: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/567495/specialty/HavasuTrailClosures.kmz and supports the issues raised in the blog posting at: http://offroadinghome.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-havasu-blm-trail-closures.html - and is based completely on trails, coordinates and meta-data supplied directly from the BLM.

What you will find in the map now are folders for:

"Trails" - These are all the trails in "jeapordy" for a decision in this round of the TMP. As you know, there are four different "scenarios" which are being considered for every trail, basically: "as it is now (A)," "Open it up (B)," "What we propose (C)" and "Close it down (D)." Apparently the BLM would like to consider "what they propose" as "inbetween" open and closed - in actuality, a careful examination reveals little difference. This map's trail colors are based upon the "What the BLM Proposes" scenario, so each trail is marked with the appropriate color. Red, Orange and Blue are trails in jeapordy - grey and yellow are connector trails not under consideration. Additionally, every trail has a route designator and description which is found by clicking on the trail name and reading the pop-up description box. When you comment to the BLM about your opinion you should reference the specific trail by name.

"Non-TMP Connectors" - This is the additional information which the BLM has just supplied us, over and above what they normally have given. It is the mapping tracks for all the connector roads which travel though public or private property (so are not officially in the TMP considerations) BUT which provide access to the trails in question. A great addition to the map which allows one to mentally locate where you are on the map!

"Area" - Additionally, there are three "areas" which are listed in the original BLM map. These are labeled and shown on the master map, although what they mean is still a bit unclear.

Hope everyone finds this useful.
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